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Topic: Death of an Animal, what happens to them???
Mike from Tallahasse
Lost Soul


Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: April 17 2001,4:34 am

I think the idea of animals not having souls, as opposed to us "superior" humans, is as a way of excusing the abuse and exploitation we subject them to. Just as any minority group, or enemy in war, is frequently characterized as somehow sub-human. I very much like the Buddhist attitude of concern for allaying the suffering of ALL living beings. When we see ourselves as substantially different and apart from those other creatures, it creates the attitude which is destroying Nature, which in our technology-loving hubris, we think we can live without.

atumn leaf, your post reminds me of a true experience of author Truman Capote. His car broke down on an isolated country road, and he hiked to the nearest house to call for a tow truck. While waiting there, he chatted with the old lady whose home it was, who commented she loved her cats so much, she couldn't bear to part with them after they'd died. She showed him her big freezer, full of aluminum-foil-wrapped kitty bodies...

(Can't reach the dictionary to see if it should be spelled "aluminium", I gotta cat on my lap...)


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RevDellamorte
Azraelite


Posts: 593
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: April 18 2001,2:06 am

I honestly believe that all animals go to a type of "heaven", where they can be reunited with their loved companions. I simply must believe this, for I truly miss my 14 year-old dog that I had to put to sleep late last year. Without this belief, I would feel more guilty than I already do.... I love animals, especially my dog... and I know that Daniel understands the feelings as well... animals must simply be where we can be reunited with them.... they must!!

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"I am chaos in motion..."

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Sahyinepu
Lost Soul


Posts: 14
Joined: Mar. 2001
Posted: April 28 2001,12:25 am

I believe that animals do have souls, and the name that I follow, Yinepu, the Ancient Egyptian parallel to Azrael, has brought several pets to me at night for a visit.  I have seen them being cared for, and the such, and often recognize an old friend in a new stray that has come to the house.  I believe that animals go over to the other side for a bit of a break and recharge as we do, and then come back here.  I also believe that as many humans return life after life to interact with old friends, so do animals return to interact with other animal companions as well as human ones.  I believe the stayover on the otherside for animals is much shorter than humans.  Animals just tend to get in less trouble than us, and thus require less of a rest.  So for me, not only do animals go over for a bit of R and R, but chances are good that they will return to hang out with familliar humans and other critters.  ;)  In some cases, humans will wait up for their animals to join them on the other side. An aunt of mine hung around untill both her beloved poodle and her horse both joined her on the other side.  I feel we all travel about in groups, humans and animals, so I look at every new critter, to see if it is an old friend, and who....it is often pretty easy, sometimes I have a dream before the comming in of a pet I knew long ago, and see it as it will soon be(this applies for humans as well).  Other times, I am told an animal I have is about to leave, but will come back in a few years.  Some were not in my orriginal group, but have simply come to show me something or help me, same as humans.  Life and death are a blurr, and it is hard to tell which is more reall....the dead even come to assist, as well as to be assisted.  The door swings both ways in the end, and no one is more privillaged than another, as to the love or affections of God.

Sahyinepu


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Mike frm Tallahassee
Azraelite


Posts: 272
Joined: April 2001
Posted: April 28 2001,3:38 am

One possible way of proving that animals have souls is that they can become ghosts!*

Not only are animals capable of "seeing" human ghosts, but in one account, a dog who'd been depressed over the death of his canine playmate was observed one day perking up, looking to his side, wagging his tail, then following the exact same play-routine they'd done when together. After a few minutes of this, the dog then stopped and looked around, confused. As if baffled by the sudden disappearance of his old friend...

*"Residual" type ghosts - the ones that follow a set routine like a running videotape - seem more a psychic impression left behind rather than being, or having any continued connection to, a conscious entity. And to further confuse the issue, one university psychic research team succeeded in CREATING a ghost! They invented a fictional, deliberately historically inaccurate life for him and personality, and after some time, the ghost started manifesting with table-rappings, answering questions via Ouija board, etc. Now the question is, did the combined energy of the researchers create him, or was some disembodied spirit involved in impersonating the fictional ghost, perhaps as a way to siphon psychic energy from the group..?


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Leilah
Lady Death


Posts: 6081
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: April 28 2001,5:56 pm

Hey Mike, I think you're referring to the old project (which later was made into a book) called "Conjuring Up Phillip". I have that book, and that was an excellent concept that shows how the power of group belief can make enery manifest via THOUGHT CREATES. Thought IS energy, and CAN create manifest form, even supernal manifestations as evidenced by that project.  I don't know if the book is still available, I've had mine since the 70's, but if you can get it, it is a unique read, to say the least!

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"Death stands above me whispering low, I know not what into my ear; Of His strange language all I know is, there is not a word of fear."

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Mike frm Tallahassee
Azraelite


Posts: 272
Joined: April 2001
Posted: April 29 2001,5:36 am

Wow, a whole BOOK on that project? Thanks for the info! I'm surprised I hadn't heard more about such an extraordinary study. I'm reminded of "tulpas", or thought-forms, mental projections that more advanced adepts in India or Tibet were able to create, and bring into physical being.


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Rev. Dr. N.
Leper Messiah


Posts: 196
Joined: Sep. 2002
Posted: Dec. 10 2002,2:05 am

Several years ago, I had "a dream that was not just a dream". What I mean to say, is that I've found that there are at least four types of dreams: 1. What I call "Brain Trash" (i.e. - The brain cycles through thoughts and experiences which occurred during the day to clear the mind of useless crap in order to make room for more important space), 2. "Symbolic dreams" to ponder our current state of mind and life filled with subconcsious answers to keep us on the right path if we analize them. 3. "Precognitive dreams" which actually predict future events, and 4. "Lucid Dream" states where we are in complete control of the action.  

Believe me, it took three years to master complete control to reach full lucid states.

When you master those states, or self-actualize them, another  world opens up to you.

Getting back to the subject at had, I once had a dream which began in a "Brain Trash" format, and, for no reason, I sgueezed through a detritus-like gate, finding myself on the other side which turned out to be my birthhome's yard, about an acre it was.    

The feeling over-whelmed me that I was no longer experiencing a regular dream.

The yard was littered with animals. But, not just any animals. I was seeing and interacting with pets we had once owned, but were long since dead.  They were running around, and playing like they did in life. I was looking at a group of pets we shared lives with for some time. And, they were happy.  :cat:

The odd part was that there were dogs and cats there which I didn't recollect. The strange part came when I described those partricular animals to my mother in the morning. It turns out that the animals which I didn't recognize were perfect descriptions of pets which my parents owned and had died before I was even born, and had no knowledge of until that point.

So, I logically came to the conclusion that there IS an after-life, even for the souls of animals. And, it would seem that it's a happy one.

Maybe they don't realize that the've passed on. I don't know. All I DO know, is that they pass into another dimension, are around us, still. And, they're content where they go, even if it looks exactly like the world they occupied in life.

Perhaps, just perhaps, OUR next transition is similar. I don't have an answer for THAT one. But, we'll all find out sooner or later.   :rose:

PS - My aunt has a vivid, and obvious picture of thier deceased dog scratching at their sliding glass doors to get in. It's an untouched picture that doesn't lie.

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- If Jesus comes, he won't forgive me. "Nothing's true," is what he'll say. "In your mind, I see that something is changing and, in your time, you'll see that all this could have been a lie."

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Dellamorte
Nephillim of Darkness


Posts: 1440
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: Dec. 10 2002,6:21 am

It is very interesting that you speak of your aunt's photo of her deceased dog scratching at the back door. I do not often share this following thought, but since you brought it forth... I had to put my 14.5 year-old dog to sleep about 2.3 years ago (still torn over it). But this past summer, I was at my Mom's house where Angel lived all of that time, and I was walking by the sliding glass door and I *swear* that I saw Angel standing on the patio, looking at me. My Mom was right there in the kitchen, and I meekly said "Mom, I just saw Angel on the patio." Without missing a beat she replied "Yes, I see her now and again as well." My Mom is wonderful... she is a Hospice Nurse and we have had many discussions over the years regarding spirits and Angels and the like. She mentions that so many people as they die look towards someone usually at the end of the bed. They generally smile and sometimes even say things like "yes" and "I'm ready"... they must be speaking to someone! I feel so free to speak with her about ghosts and spirits and Angels and such... she is a very intelligent woman and has never thought I was crazy at all. She even recalls the dream I told her about when I was 8 and my Great-grandmother died. I dreamt I was an angel flying around in the cemetery, and 20 years later, I actually found that cemetery that was in my dream. The dream was incredibly vivid, as most of mine are. I recall minute details easily... and I tripped out when I found that cemetery, because that is where my G-Grandmother (and about 30 others in my family) are buried. So yes, I am quite a "Dream Master" as well, I love them, I study them.... I over-sleep just so I can dream longer! And I truly believe in the dream that you had about your pets and all... do we have a thread on dreams somewhere?? I could discuss them forevermore.

I still think about letting her in when I go over there, and my Mom says that she still opens the door every now and again to feed her. But she is obviously not there in a physical form. I do not think that my Mom and I do these things from old habit, but rather we feel her spirit there, wanting to be with us. That is when we think of her and think about letting her in and feeding her. I think that her spirit shall always reside in that backyard, where we had so much fun together for so long... sigh....

Last Friday, Coinneach (my best bud in the universe and an awesome person in the Temple of Azrael) lost his 6.5 year-old white Persian kitty. She had a heart-attack and he found her dead on the floor. He is quite messed up over this unfortunate turn of events, he loves his cats more than I have ever seen anyone love cats. Needless to say, it was a very long weekend. He wrote to me last night and told me that his other cat, the 12 year-old Knack had suddenly started playing with something that he could not see. I truly believe that Knack was seeing Bonnie in the room. I believe that animals can indeed sense things that humans cannot or even refuse to. Yes, I believe all animals have spirits.

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Rev. Lord Dellamorte
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wraith
Azraelite


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Joined: Feb. 2002
Posted: Dec. 10 2002,6:38 am

That's a great dream, Dell, and I'm lucky enough to share such conversations with my mother as well. It means a lot.
  As to the spirits/souls of animals--- I can wholeheartedly attest to that after working in animal hospitals for so many years. But even with that, my greatest experience came not with a dog or cat, but with the first rat I owned just 5-6 years ago. He actually felt like an old soul that I had known before. It was amazing and we had a connection on a very deep level. He passed away at an old age while I was holding him, telling him I was grateful for the chance to have known him, loved him and hoped to meet up with him again, but that I knew he needed to go, and for him not to linger on my account. At that moment I felt his little soul rise up over my left shoulder and dance away with pure joy. His heart still pulsed a couple of beats, but I knew he was already gone. It was an amazing experience. So even the tiniest of creatures have spirit. Of that I have no doubt  :hippy:

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Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who only dream by night. -Edgar Allan Poe-

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Dellamorte
Nephillim of Darkness


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Posted: Dec. 11 2002,4:40 am

Hi Wraith! Thank you for sharing that with me, it makes me feel so much when others care and feel their loved pets... I completely agree with you, I think that all animals, including insects and even one-celled amoebas (spell check) have souls/spirits. I tend to even believe that plant life and any living creature has a soul of a type, because we cannot recreate life! Why is that? Because we cannot replace the soul once we have killed something! I believe that the soul is what allows something to be alive-- as opposed to say, a rock. My Mom taught me as a youngin' to not even step on ants-- and still to this day I walk with my eyes down, avoiding all living creatures within my path!

You are very lucky to have the same type of relationship with your Mom, it is very nice, isn't it? Moms put up with so much, believe in so much... and when *they* think you are nuts, you probably are! :) My Mom is very special, and if she ever thought I was crazy in any manner, it would hurt me deeply.

That is a "beautiful" story about your rat, I am sorry about his passing. It sounds as though he meant quite a bit to you, and you knew of his calling and all... beautiful, absolutely beautiful. ;( I am so glad that you felt him dance away over your shoulder!!! I am so glad that there are so many animal lovers on this board! Sometimes it hurts so much, and we truly want them to stay with us... but alas, we know that they cannot. It is so very hard to lose those that we love so much. Yes, the tiniest of creatures have souls, and of that I have no doubt either.

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Rev. Lord Dellamorte
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