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Topic: Capital Punishment, Justification to cause death?
RevDellamorte
Azraelite


Posts: 593
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 11 2001,6:05 am

Timothy McVeigh is sentenced to die this evening. Capital punishment has always sparked a debate since the beginning of time. Is there a right or a wrong to such an action being taken on our part as "society"? I have always lived by the old adage of a "tooth for a tooth", but does there come a time when it really does not cure the hurt? Having just sat through a news show that took us all the way through an execution, my feelings are now mixed. I have always walked the fine line on this subject, for to me it is all a gray area.

The particular show I just watched was about a killer in Arizona. Miller wanted to die for his crime. The victim's family wanted him to die as well. 54 people were brought in to watch him die, including his own mother (whom he asked to be there). What truly got me was that for these 54 people, they even had a catering service bring in a room full of food and snacks. By what they showed, I would have taken it for a high-school reunion or other type of party-- certainly not an execution. When it was all over, there did not seem to be any "hip-hip-hooray" or anything. Did these people feel satisfied yet guilty at the same time? Does it make it all "all right" now that they murdered him? He escaped, by not asking for any appeals, he basically committed suicide. Would it not have been better to leave him on death row and allow him to repent for his sins for the rest of his life? What did all of this prove? Let us first reflect on the foundations of our thoughts and feelings before we simply state "well he deserved to die for shooting that girl 5 times in the head". Yes, I would agree that he *deserved* to die, but what did it all prove in the end? Where is the punishment by putting someone to sleep and then stopping their heart? Yes, lethal injection consists of three different drugs. The first one puts you to sleep, the second paralyzes the muscles, and the third one simply stops the heart. Where is the punishment in this? "Yes, we all feel better now that we killed him for what he did... although it cost more to put him to death than it would have to keep him in prison forever and let him think about what he did... we simply gave him an easy way out."

Perhaps I would not think the death penalty was so worthless if we simply allowed the victim's family (if they so desired) to carry out the punishment. But to put someone to death that you do not even have any feelings towards or anything-- what is the point? Perhaps if we used cruel and unusual types of punishments, it would all be different. Perhaps then people would think about what could happen to them if they go through with the crime that they are about to commit. Is America simply to lax on criminals? Do we almost "condone" crime by not punishing those who duly deserve it? Is putting someone to sleep a punishment? No, it is an escape from prison for the next 50 years.

Yes, Timothy McVeigh is a sociopath. He apathetically killed many-- including happy, smiling babies... he does not seem to have any remorse at all about the entire situation. So now by putting him to sleep in a nice kind way-- that will bring back all of the dead? This will simply heal everything? Yes, the victim's families will have the satisfaction, perhaps only briefly, or perhaps forever-- but it will never heal their pain or give them back their loved ones. Does capital punishment actually serve a purpose? For it does not seem to deter anyone from murdering another. If I truly cared to be vicious and let him pay for his crime, my thought would be the electric chair, on very low voltage for a few hours... let him sit there in pain and think about it all. So should we, as a society, have the right to do the same to a murderer as they did to their victim? Are we any better than them at all? Where does the cycle end? If we follow our own thoughts through, we would then be obligated to murder those responsible for murdering the murderer. So with all personal justice put aside, does capital punishment really serve a purpose or even truly cure anything when you really think about it? Or perhaps we simply have executions for the food.... (sorry, I cannot get over the feeding of the cattle at my taxpayer's expense).

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"I am chaos in motion..."


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hayla
Reaper


Posts: 35
Joined: April 2001
Posted: June 11 2001,9:09 am

I thought that a proper form of punishment for him wouldn't have been execution. I thought it would be fitting if they had sentenced him to life without parole in a maximum security facility, but not in a solitary confinement unit. No, I thought they should've put him out with the general population. In prison, if you've been convicted of child molesting and/or killing, you are pretty much dead meat as soon as you step inside. The inmates would've found some way to get ahold of him, torture him, and then kill him in some incredibly painful way. That would have been appropriate for him, instead of letting the state drug him into oblivion.

I don't really think the death penalty has any point, but if I had someone close to me die at the hands of another, I suppose I would want some kind of revenge, but not like that. It seems all too convenient for the familes of the victims to just sit and watch while someone else performs the actual execution. To me, it almost seems like they wouldn't want to take an active part in it because they would be just as guilty as the murderer.

Also, I'm amazed at how some people have reacted to today's big news. This morning, as I was waking up, I was listening to the new on my radio, and I couldn't believe how disrespectful the DJ's were being about this whole thing. They were making nasty comments and talking over the news clips they were supposed to be playing. I know that this wingnut didn't deserve any kind of respect after what he did, but he was still a person, and they showed no respect for the fact that he died at the hands of the federal government.

Sorry for babbling so much. :confused:

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"To die will be an awfully big adventure." - James M. Barrie, Peter Pan


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Sio
Azraelite


Posts: 694
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 11 2001,11:41 am

It is only when an issue like this hits close to home that anyone could ever know the waves of emotion that flow beneath the surface of an angry heart seeking revenge.
It is a feeling unlike any other.  I'm sure some here have felt it.

Personally, I would love to see people like McVeigh suffer slowly at the hands of an angry mob....
They should have locked McVeigh in a condemned building, and let explosives take care of the rest.... just as HE did.

Lethal injection is too kind, and too humane. The electric chair is too kind, and too humane. Hanging...eh, getting closer to acceptable, but not quite.
Draw & quarter? Only if the head/torso lives for a few minutes so it may reflect on the situation at hand.

When I was in grade school, the daughter of a friend of my parents was murdered. This man had killed three other people besides...cutting off their hands, and leaving them battered, and broken in the forest preserve. I well remember the sickness, and the sorrow that followed for *years* after. This man now sits cozy, clothed, and well fed in a *moderate* security prison, with all the benefits of the outside world IN the facility, and to this day refuses to show any remorse for what he's done. He doesn't have to... he's set for life. He (somehow) avoided execution. Hard thing to do in Illinois.

I would LOVE to see someone cut off HIS hands...tie HIM to a tree...slit HIS throat...and leave him for dead.
This way he'd suffer, and not be released immediately.
That is the revenge in me speaking. Whether it's right, or justified, I don't know. I would merely rather see him die, and have to return to face the flesh again, than know that MY tax money will support him for the rest of his life. Either way though, he WILL have to return. He loses anyway, I suppose.

Regarding McVeigh... would he have done what he did if the FBI didn't storm the Branch Dividians? This is a can of whoop-ass all by itself.
Maybe Reno should have been the one executed....


(Edited by Sio at 11:43 am on June 11, 2001)

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O, not in cruelty, not in wrath,
The Reaper came that day;
'Twas an Angel visited the green earth,
And took the flowers away.
-- H.W. Longfellow


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Leilah
Lady Death


Posts: 6081
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 11 2001,12:30 pm

Death is too good of a reward for people like that. They should be made to suffer as they made their victims and their victim's families suffer. Why should we "reward" people like this with Death? Most of these people don't even care if they live or die, no it's no skin off their nose to be sentenced to death.

I say, bring back the torture chambers and let the families carry out sentence.

Some cultures (Muslim society for example) have little violent crime because they KNOW the punishment will be quite harsh and there is no mamby-pamby "justice".

:rail:


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"Death stands above me whispering low, I know not what into my ear; Of His strange language all I know is, there is not a word of fear."


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Sio
Azraelite


Posts: 694
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 11 2001,7:17 pm

I say, bring back the torture chambers and let the families carry out sentence.

HELL YEAH!!!

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O, not in cruelty, not in wrath,
The Reaper came that day;
'Twas an Angel visited the green earth,
And took the flowers away.
-- H.W. Longfellow


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Samaelz
Disciple of Death


Posts: 2584
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 11 2001,7:45 pm

You don't know how much I mutualy agree with you Leilah!!! GOD, I throw a zillion roses on youu!!

(Edited by Samaelz at 7:48 pm on June 11, 2001)

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The infernal empire can "kiss" my swiss chesse Dracula!


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daoine o
mistress of the mountains


Posts: 1249
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 12 2001,12:03 am

I agree with Leilah...bring back the torture chamber.  Or rather, as Sio said, make the punishment fit the crime.  This is one of the rare times you'll hear me quote the bible... 'An eye for an eye.'  
    I'm rather ambivalent about McVeigh's execution; I have a strange feeling there are going to be some unusual repercussions following it.  I can't put my finger on it, but something doesn't seem right.  
****Editorial moment...read at your own risk*****
    And not to belabor a certain point, but I really take issue with singling out the children McVeigh also killed as if their deaths were somehow more horrible than the adult casualties.  I really hate that child-centric tone cast on the whole case.  I loathe children in general, and feel they're certainly no more special or more worthwhile.  They're less.  Forgive my rambling, or if I hurt anyone's feelings.  This is merely my opinion.
*****End editorial moment*******

On another somewhat related note regarding suitable punishment, there were 2 teenaged boys (16 & 17) here in Denver that took a cat, lit it on fire, and tossed it out a moving car.  The cat somehow survived, and is slowly recovering in hospital.  And luckily, the 2 disgusting, miserable little pieces of excrement that perpetrated the atrocity were caught.  The worst they'll get is 18 months in a juvenile facility and oh, yes, *anger management classes*  WTF???   Now, if you ask me, what they did to this poor cat deserves like punishment.  Light their rotten little asses on fire and toss *them* out of a moving vehicle.  However, if they survive, I'd like to be the first in line to kick the living sh*t out of them.  Oh, but that would be 'cruel and unusual punishment'!  'That would make us no better than them', the bleeding hearts will say...f*ck 'em.    Were their victims shown any such mercy?  

This ends my diatribe.  Have a lovely day.  :pissed:

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grave wishes!

daoine o'


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Samaelz
Disciple of Death


Posts: 2584
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 12 2001,12:45 am

In my opinion children should never be trialed as an adult. There minds are not fully developed and there usualy confused. Even if it were mine own, I most certainly wouldn't light a childs ass on fire and throw 'em out of a moving vehicle. Thats murder! A spanking and grounding should be plenty enough for that reason. I wouldn't tolerate seeing that done in a community inwhich I live! I'd beat you up for being so foolish and then let justice take hold of you.

(Edited by Samaelz at 1:15 am on June 12, 2001)

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The infernal empire can "kiss" my swiss chesse Dracula!


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daoine o
mistress of the mountains


Posts: 1249
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 12 2001,1:46 am

Sammy,
    Didn't really want to start a 2-person-only discussion on the board about this, but I feel compelled to remind you and point out again...

The two males who set the cat on fire were 16 and 17 years old.

 That's *quite* old enough to know right from wrong.  These weren't 'confused little boys'.  
'A spanking and a grounding' would be quite ineffective on these two, I'm sure, as they obviously have had no discipline in their lives from their worthless breeders or have been given any appreciation for life to know that you *don't* do something like that to another creature.  Light *them* on fire and throw them out of a moving car?  I still see no problem with doing that.  Except they aren't worth the waste of matches and gasoline.  Just eliminate them now, and save society a lot of pain when in a few years they become full-blown sociopaths; the next high-school shooters/bombers, co-ed rapists or worse.  I stand by my words.  Any other discussion on this should probably be taken off-board.  Email me if you'd like.



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grave wishes!

daoine o'


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RevDellamorte
Azraelite


Posts: 593
Joined: Feb. 2001
Posted: June 12 2001,3:22 am

Quote
Quote: from daoine o' on 12:46 am on June 12, 2001

The two males who set the cat on fire were 16 and 17 years old.

 That's *quite* old enough to know right from wrong.  These weren't 'confused little boys'.  
'A spanking and a grounding' would be quite ineffective on these two, I'm sure, as they obviously have had no discipline in their lives from their worthless breeders or have been given any appreciation for life to know that you *don't* do something like that to another creature.  Light *them* on fire and throw them out of a moving car?  I still see no problem with doing that.  Except they aren't worth the waste of matches and gasoline.  Just eliminate them now, and save society a lot of pain when in a few years they become full-blown sociopaths; the next high-school shooters/bombers, co-ed rapists or worse.  I stand by my words.  Any other discussion on this should probably be taken off-board.  Email me if you'd like.

Did I happen to mention how much I love you? Yes, humans should suffer the same fate.... I truly believe in "cruel and unusual" punishment. An eye for an eye, whether human or not. Hell no, I believe that this shold all be discussed right here.... in the name of Azrael.... the beautiful Angel who actually has to touch these tainted souls....  I love Him, and I love those of you who have seen beyond societal means.

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"I am chaos in motion..."


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